i think about this a lot but how much better would thor 1 be if we got to see thor react to the fact that his beloved brother was a race that he grew up wanting to slaughter?? like was that not an important plot point?? THAT’S a better way for thor to realize that killing just to conquer is wrong, that’s how he should have realized the error of his ways, not just meeting mortals and wanting to protect them, but by hurting someone that he loved because of his arrogant ignorance and prejudice
It makes Thor and Loki’s relationship the most important in the movie since it’s the relationship impacting Thor’s character arc, and that’s how it should be in a Thor movie.
The people Thor wants to conquer are Frost Giants, not humans. Asgard’s opinion of Midgard is in no way comparable to its opinion of Jotunheim. Learning how nice and cool humans are shouldn’t impact how he feels about Jotunheim. This is why I explain his change of heart in other ways.
The trouble is, I think a small change like, for instance, Thor noticing Loki turning blue when the Frost Giant touches him would change the plot entirely. If Thor had noticed that, he’d have grabbed Loki and noped the fuck out of the battle on Jotunheim. The conversation between him and Odin would have been entirely different. He probably wouldn’t have been banished, which means Loki wouldn’t have been regent.
There’s an interesting fanfic in that idea. (Obviously there are already works that have Thor find out Loki’s a Frost Giant and never get banished, but most of the ones I’ve read are pro-Odin, pro-Asgard, and anti-Jotunheim, and that’s just not my cup of tea.)
@foundlingmother Perhaps seeing Loki’s hand turn blue is what prompted Thor to retreat from the ongoing battle on Jotunheim. Odin arrived just as they reached that edge and Thor slayed that frost beast.
Thor didn’t blather about slaying the Frost Giants together then, because he was holding onto Loki, confusion and rising panic keeping both of them quiet.
Then after coming back to Asgard, Thor directly asked Odin about Loki, his voice raised. Odin gave them some spiel about saving Loki from those ’monsters’, but Thor, angry and wanting straight answers, lashed out at Odin. Odin finally revealed how he wanted to bring peace through Loki. That shocked both Thor and Loki, causing Thor to personally call Odin out on his shit.
Loki tried to intervene, but Odin banished Thor to Midgard. Now feeling directly responsible for all this shit going down, Loki reacted with his emotions clouding his thoughts. In his attempt to stop Odin from banishing Thor, he got thrown to Midgard as well. Both the brothers banished to the same realm, perhaps landing a bit apart on Midgard.
Hence began the adventure of two brothers rediscovering their brotherhood and love by shared experiences on a strange planet, trying to come to terms with the fact that the man they looked upto all their life was actually a huge liar and tyrant. Cue in the angsty stuff where Loki actually tries to distance himself from Thor, wondering if he feels disgusted to even touch him, or if his touch might injure Thor unexpectedly. Thor trying to pull Loki out of his funk, while trying to get some understanding about the drastically changed modern Midgard. Mjiolnir has also been taken from him, and he is distraught about that too. But for the first time in his life, Thor begins to question if he actually deserves such a weapon, if he actually is an honorable warrior and prince.
On Asgard, Odin plans to destroy Jotunheim. Frigga sees this and asks the warrior 4 to go on Midgard to find the brothers. She herself goes to stop Odin from taking this step. Heimdall and Odin have a confrontation, where Odin almost kills him. But Frigga intervenes. That’s when Thor and Loki arrive back in Asgard.
Thor and Loki finally have to confront their fears and insecurities to fight Odin, who is bent on destroying Jotunheim, while Frigga takes the Gungnir out if the bifrost activating slot, stopping it from frying Jotunheim.
Odin, already fighting odinsleep, finally collapses, and the drama finally comes to an end. The brothers are injured, but not very seriously.
Movie concludes with Frigga sitting on the throne of Asgard while the brothers return to Midgard to thank their new friends (including Jane). That’s when the thing with the Tesseract being rediscovered happens.
I am into this. Yes, indeed.
I love it! My only problem with this is that I don’t think Odin would wanna destroy Jötunheim like that. It woul alter the balance between The Nine Realms and breack the paternalist fazade that he worked so hard on. Maybe if the brothers confront him for something else, like returning The Winter Caskett to Jötunheim.
@artemisa97 That’s true. I think it would make more sense if Jotunheim, using the excuse that Thor invading and killing their kind presents, went on the offensive and escalated it to the point of war. It could very easily be shown to be justified. First, they’re dying and need the Casket back. Second, they’re aware Thor’s the next king of Asgard, and he’s just shown he’s not only willing, but excited to slay them all. Better to go out in one last ditch effort to retrieve the power source they need. Odin responds, now under no obligation to pretend to be peaceful and paternalistic. He’s just defending his Realm. He already punished Thor for his actions, so the Frost Giants are unnecessarily escalating the conflict due to their violent, warmongering nature.
The way I would do it, Thor goes to retrieve the Casket to return it, and he must battle the Destroyer (perhaps with Sif and the Warriors Three). Meanwhile, Loki goes to Jotunheim. Odin and Laufey are battling one another in the same place that the opening showed Odin defeating Laufey. Loki joins in, helps Laufey disarm and disable Odin. Just as Laufey’s about to exact his victory and vengeance, Loki kills him in the same way he does in Thor. Thor gives the Casket to one of Laufey’s sons. The Asgardian army is allowed to retreat.
@foundlingmother Ok, so, while my computer went through some problems, I had time to think about all this scenario and now I have opinions. And girl, are they long…
First, I agree with you with that ending, even if I’m not sure that Helblindi and Bylester would accept their father’s dead that easaly. Anyway, what I actually want to explore is what happens next, since I belive that this could make TDW waaaaaaaay more interesting. Or, in any case, more solid.
Assuming that Avengers happens mostly the same but with Loki being an avenger instead of a villain or, in any case, not really taking part in the conflict at all, I think he would visit Midgard very often. After the whole killing Laufey everything would come out in Asgard and people would know that Loki is a Frost Gigant. Between the racism and the fact that Loki was always the odd one out, being there would be hellish, so he would try to avoid it. And now he had actual friends! Not fake friends that tolerate him just because he is Thor little brother, but friends that don’t care about his heritage and want him around (want him around, not Thor, Loki) because he is himself and they like him, even when he is a lil’ shit sometimes.
That friend would be Jane, of course, because we are forgetting that whole romantic thing with Thor. It wasn’t good, it wasn’t interesting and Thor would have been to busy with the whole “MY LITTLE BROTHER IS A FROST GIGANT AND MY FATHER IS KINDA OF AN ASSHOLE” thing in the first movie, so that never happened (thank Frigga). But I do belive that, little after the first AWFUL AND BOMBASTIC argument with Odin, Loki would sneack to Earth and stay in Jane’s couch. They would be besties because Jane is nice and she would listen to him and support him. Loki would become that friend with a shitty family that appers in the middle of the nightwith a new story about his dad racism and homofobia and, just, assholery. I belive that, after the first times, it would become a thing, not just for when he has problems in Asgard, but a whole weekly thing. They would drink heavily while watching Shakesperian dramas that Loki would get because of the similaritys with Asgardian theather and because his own shitty family live and then talk about magic and sience and the universe. (I also belive that they would understand each other in another way, since Jane is in a very masculine field and Loki has always being insulted for his magic and seidr, that are considered femenine matters; they probably get each other deeply in those subjects and are good support when Jane is called “a pretty face that doesn’t get sience” or when an asgardian calls Loki an agr.) Also, they would end up watching telenovelas because I know that Loki would love them, ok? A lot of people shit in telenovelas but it’s the perfect mix between clasic tragedy and clasic comedy and they are so dramatic: Loki would be adicted. He would also love Empire becuase it’s the perfect combination of Shakespeare and telenovela with a little spoon of social commentary that would resonate with Loki while he is trying to decide if he is more asgardiand than jotunn.
In any case, I digress, what I was actually trying to say is that they would be besties, so Loki could have being there while the whole portal thing was happening. Now, here we start again in the movie itself, but instead of that w-e-a-c-k protection for the ether, it would be AN ACTUAL PROTECTION. Like the dungeons of an old abandoned castle full of protections and traps, but Loki would see the Asgardian Royal Sigil and the ancient drawings and would realize that it had something to do with the dark elves. The version of the story that Odin always told is flawed and Loki reacts very badly because “OMG ANOTHER ASGARDIAN SECRET THEY ALWAYS LIE IT WILL NEVER END I CAN’T EVEN” and breacks the seal because he is gonna find out the truth one way or another. Jane follows him because they are buddies and she is concern. Also, she has no idea of what’s happening and needs Loki to go back to Earth, so… But he frees the ether and it gets inside Jane because of course it does. Loki takes her and go back to Midgard, wich is the moment when Thor appers just like in the movie.
They go back to Asgard, but Odin is ANGRY becuase Loki just waked up the dark elves and freed the ether and now is inside of the stupid mortal, so he accuse him of threason for ignoring the warning simbols and loks him up. Frigga is angry and Thor is angry but Odin is the boss. Loki, of course, it’s also angry because he knows Odin was just expectin for an oportunity like this to get rid of him, so they have a very close version of his trial scene since they are both furios and burning with resentment. Loki is imprissioned.
Now, Thor. Thor is focussing in protecting Jane because she is his friend too and Odin is very racist, but he is conflicted about Loki. Of course, he wants him to be free, but doesn’t really do anything to get him free because he is angry that he endangered Jane and, more important, their relationshipp? Quite tense right now. First, Odin had a lot of time to get in his head and ooooooh, the Old Man is good at it. Second, he had been most of that time away from Loki, since he is returning the Nine Realms back to order and Loki is in Asgard, fighting with Odin. Third, he is jealous AS FUCK. Thor is a fixer. He likes fixing things, he wants to fix things and help the people he loves, he needs to fix things and feel that is his responsability, more so with Loki. But. He has been away. And Loki is going more and more time back to Midgard and the little time they expend together is more and more filled with discussions. Becuase Loki is starting to see that under that golden facade of Asgard there is blood and destruction. Now, Thor is a good person and always try to help, but he is very proud of being an asgardian and probably doesn’t take very well that Loki is starting to try and learn about his heritage because considers that Loki is as much of an asgardian as he is. The way he is starting to reject Asgard is an eco of the way he is starting to reject their bond, reject Thor. So, he loves his brother and want to help him, but he is gonna play with Odin’s rules because Loki is being very unstable lately.
Now is when the elves come into play. Loki, like in the movie, indicates them how to get to the palace because he is so angry at Odin and he belives that the dark elves are probably not as bad as they have being made look. He regrets that later, when Frigga dies protecting Jane.
Thor helps Loki to escape and the go in a very similar way to the rest of the movie. The only change it’s that, when Loki survives, which he is NOT expecting, he doesn’t overthrone Odin. He is done with Asgard. Everyone there hates him and discriminate him and he is just. Tired. He is so tired. He is feeling bad for the dead of Frigga and angry at Odin and doesn’t know what to feel about Thor. So he goes back to Midgard and stays ther with Jane and Darcy, that are thrilled that he is alive because they actually care about him. Asgard knows that he is alive but they leave him alone. Thor comes to visit and they talk, but Loki stays on Midgard.
At least, until AoU. In that movie I don’t really know i he goes in a road trip with Thor to find the infinity stones or if he stays and help Wanda with her magic.
Anyway, I’m sorry for the wall of text and any mistakes that I probable y have comited, english is my third language and DAMN, it’s a long post, I don’t think I will find all of them, xD
like, heimdall saw that shit right? odin comes back through the bifrost and heimdall is just “…………….”
heimdall: that’s a baby
odin: yes! he’s my son! ………..loki. i’m going to dress him in green and black, because that worked great last time
or odin comes back and is trying to figure out, how to play it, and heimdall and frigga are just waiting for him and completely deadpan
frigga: ah, husband! you have returned from war in time to meet your newborn son. who i had. after being pregnant. secretly.
odin: what
frigga:
heimdall:
loki: *baby noises*
odin: right
honestly, i just need heimdall going up to frigga like “you won’t believe what your husband just did”
odin: he’s a replacement for the child I had to lock away in the shadow realm.
heimdall:
odin: I’ll do better by this one. I know I will.
heimdall:
heimdall: You mean Frigga will.
Odin: Please can we keep it? It’s cute and changes colours and smiles at my empty eye socket. I promise I’ll take care of it I’ll feed it every week and I’ll dress it in green and black and I’ll teach it to throw knives and it will be great!
Heimdall: Frigga, he stole a baby. Say something.
THIS IS THE BEST THING
Funny as this is, I think it gives Odin way too much compassion and fatherly skills. I picture it more like this:
Odin: I return to Asgard with the abandoned son of Laufey, who is now our political prisoner.
Heimdall: ……that’s a baby.
Odin: ……..well, yes, technically.
Frigga: …….he’s my son now.
Odin: I’m not sure if –
Frigga: don’t talk to me or my son ever again
Odin: But, Frigga…
Frigga walking away with the baby: You know, for a guy who gave up an eye to have the ability to foresee the future and all that, you really are pretty blind.
Odin: So, I have no depth perception. Sue me.
Heimdall: they wonder why I don’t go to family dinners…
I know a great many followers of Norse religions who believe Odin should’ve gotten his eye back.
ODIN: I have returned victorious! See, I have brought–
FRIGGA: My child.
ODIN: What?
FRIGGA: I’m your wife; if you’re bringing a baby into my bedchamber, it had damn well better be mine.
ODIN: …but this is…
FRIGGA: The next words out of your mouth had better not be, “an innocent baby that I’m going to keep imprisoned for political gain.”
ODIN: …
FRIGGA: Give me my son.
ODIN: …o…kay?
FRIGGA: Better start telling people this is your son, because I assure you I will have no problems telling people this is Laufey’s son.
ODIN: Heimdall! Please announce to the realm that I have a new son!
okay, so everyone has set up the main rivalry in Black Panther as Killmonger vs T’Challa. And obviously that’s the main narrative structure of the story, not arguing with that. But I feel like from a purely character arc standpoint, the actual battle is Killmonger vs Nakia, and she obliterates him.
Erik Stevens is a CIA covert operative; basically, he’s a spy. So is Nakia. And when you look at their various actions through the lens of “who accomplished their mission better?”, it becomes pretty clear that Erik spent 20-some years preparing to destabilize T’Challa’s reign, including having inside knowledge and a birthright on his side…and Nakia spent roughly 36 hours successfully destabilizing his reign, in turn, with nothing but her incredible ability to network disparate resources.
Let’s just review her actions over those 36 hours okay:
– Gets the surviving members of the royal family successfully out of danger within seconds of the coup (aka the only living people with a competing blood claim to the throne aka the greatest threat to his regime)
– Sows enough doubt in the “greatest warrior in the country” about Killmonger’s ability to lead that when the time comes, Okoye and the entire Dora Milaje all defect (eventually saving hundreds of lives)
– Steals a heart-shaped herb from under his nose as he’s identifying it as the most important power resource in the country and trying to prevent it falling into anyone else’s hands, lol too late buddy
– Immediately identifies the person in the country with the best platform to mount a counter-insurgency (M’Baku), identifies what it will take to get him on their side, and casually resolves a centuries-long division in their country while she’s at it
– Correctly predicts Killmonger’s opening move of distributing vibranium to the war dogs, and assists in a comprehensive strategy that shuts it down cold–a strategy they wouldn’t have been able to use if she hadn’t gotten Shuri, Ross, and T’Challa all in one place with the right information at the right time
As soon as T’Challa is back she takes an immediate backseat again (she said it herself, she’s a spy, not the leader of an army), but, seriously, if you have to pinpoint the one person who took down Killmonger, it’s undeniably her. And she did it by clearly demonstrating that her skills as a war dog are miles ahead of his as a CIA agent (due in part, I’m sure, to being trained in a superior country, but also she’s Just That Good).
Yes! Erik’s real misfortune was coming up against a much better and smarter intelligence operative. She also gives the lie to the stereotypical spy narrative (embodied by Erik) that you have to be heartless and violent to achieve your ends. She is the moral center and touchstone of film, so filled with goodness it comes off her like a glow, but she kicks the ruthless Erik’s ass from Wakanda to Kinshasa.
Another thing Nakia was good at was identifying where the necessary resources weren’t, namely in herself. That was why she argued Ramonda out of the idea of taking it herself. It wasn’t self-effacement or modesty, it was a clear-eyed calculation of what it would take to win and the best chance was with M’Baku, not her.
And she did much of this while she thought the man she still loved was dead. She admits as much to Okoye, too. Think of how much sheer fortitude that took, to work through a grief like that to save your country. She is a hero and her heroism is no less amazing for not being flashy or center stage.
joke: loki has his hair greased down all the time because he’s a greasy boy
woke: loki has his hair greased down all the time because he’s learned since childhood that if his large electric brother thor so much as high-fives him without it being slicked back he’ll be walking around for the rest of the day with it sticking up straight in the air from static, looking like a very frightened cat
The movie is brilliant. They didn’t leave a stone unturned.
Ok not only that! but! I’m feeling like the reason why N’jobu wasn’t in Wakanda in the ancestral plane is because 1. he wasn’t buried the right way, (if you remember several times throughout the movie, the burial process is mentioned to be extremely sacred and important), and 2. because N’jobu hadn’t died in Wakanda.
This was another reason to point out what Erik and his father were talking about being lost and away from their home. Because N’jobu would never go home, in his former life and the next, he’d always be trapped, forever lost from finding his home
^^this gave me chills.
I also thought it could be relationship to how black men in America encouraged to not show emotions, not cry or hug, as they make it seem to show a since of weakness.
When N’jobu asked Erik,” No tears for me?” You could see how Erik was holding back tears and just left it as,” the world is hard, men don’t have the chance to cry” in so many words.
I really almost cried because he could finally see his father and they didn’t share a tender embrace as T’Chaka and T’Challa..
☝damn, NOW I’M CRYING AGAIN 😭😭😭
They didn’t hug because Killmonger’s father was disappointed, both in himself and in his son. And yes because toxic masculinity defines our society.
T’Chaka was proud of his son because T’Challa was a good man despite T’Chaka’s mistakes. N’jobu failed his son utterly and completely. He was estranged from Wakanda and so, in turn, was his son.
It was a beautiful scene, full of regret and the ways in which the mistakes of the past can be visited on present generations. The scene was supposed to be our clue that Killmonger was not going to be king. He was not a product of Wakanda. He was a product of that sad, angry room with both the guns and the history hidden behind a painting on the wall.
He was a product of a hidden history and a violent society. So that is where he went, and that is where he met his father forever trapped by the mistakes of men who could not see beyond their own needs. T’Chaka, his need to protect his vision of himself and Wakanda and N’jobu, his need to heal the world by defying his King and country.
The thread running through Black Panther is estrangement. It is the stylised story of a people whose history has been hidden for far too long. It is the story of a people estranged from themselves and their history. It is the story of the Diaspora. It is also a story of choice. We, the Diaspora, choose every day and in every minute our response to that estrangement. Are we defined by the wrongs visited upon us as a people? Do we hold the anger in? Do we explode? Do we make people pay for the hurt, the pain, the indignities? Will we be Killmongers?
Will we meet our ancestors in the sad, dark places of our pain?
That was one of the points of that scene. Erik Killmonger met his father in the sad, dark place of his pain.
I hope that the original cut has another scene. One in which Erik Killmonger joins his ancestors in Wakanda, because in the moments before his death he got it. He finally became a child of Wakanda. He would have freed himself and his father from those chains.
I mean look at how that scene began. Erik learned his history by finding it in the hidden place. His father wanted him to find it, but that is not how you teach children their history. You hold them in your lap and say this is who we are. You tell them stories. You take them home.
Ryan Coogler is trying to show us in a few scenes what estrangement means. What being cutoff from your history means. You are not supposed to find it in a cutout behind a painting sitting next to the guns. And that wasn’t his fault. Other people made bad choices. A society made bad choices and he paid for their bad choices with his soul.
But then there comes a point when you choose who you will be, despite the bad choices that formed you. Killmonger made the correct choice in the end, or at least the only choice he could have made.
His story is heartbreaking. It is Shakespearean. He is the first beautiful villain in the MCU, and I adore his story.
Black Panther is such and complex and compelling story with such rich text and undertones and themes that I’m thoroughly convinced that we’ll be discussing its meaning for, possibly years to come.
Another thing I love that I’ve probably already mentioned on here is how T’Challa woke up the second time with his back turned on his ancestors symbolizing he was turning his back on their old ways. The symbolism running through the entire movie is intense.
Steel Phoenix Studios 